On another Naturist forum I posted about being seen naked as a way of conditioning the public to accept seeing occasional naked people. One of the other Naturists replied:
"I think you are being unrealistic. Forcing our nudity on other people does not make them accept it- it just makes them think we are arrogant and inconsiderate of other people. Rather it makes sense to you or not- many people do not like nudity- especially nudity that they think is unattractive- and forcing them to see it will not change their mind one bit."
I find that attitude rather off putting. Nobody forces anyone to look. THEY are forcing their clothing on us in public places. We are not forcing them to be naked. Forcing us to not only see but participate in their ugly fabric body covers does not change my mind about ugly uncomfortable body covers.
In my opinion there are way too many so-called Naturists (or Nudists) who believe that human bodies should not be seen in public. The attitude conveys and continues anti-body standards. It accepts and enforces the anti-nude agenda that makes bodies obscene, indecent, or otherwise offensive in public.
We will never achieve a goal of public acceptance of nude human bodies as long as we “Police” ourselves and enforce the attitude that even being seen by textiles is “forcing” them to see something offensive. The concept that seeing someone naked, seeing an actual human being, one of their own species is forcing nudity on other people promotes the belief that nudity is unnatural, and humans are inherently offensive. I object to that attitude. Nudists need to demand public acceptance of human bodies. We are NOT FORCING them to be naked. Neither should they be FORCING US to be clothed. Fair is fair. Freedom is freedom. Polite applies to both people or it doesn't apply at all.
There is an ongoing disagreement in organized International nudism over whether Nudists should be more aggressive in promoting acceptance of nudity. I side with those who say that nudity should be promoted and pushed.
In my opinion a belief among nudists that we have to hide our offensive bodies is why nudism has never achieved mainstream acceptance. We will NEVER be accepted while even nudists believe humans are not acceptable in public.
I am more like an old goat.
I do dislike people who cry about how deprived they are, while they want others to fight for them.
Personally I learned a long time ago which battles are worth fighting.
I have the freedom to live my life. I also learn it is easier to just do a thing and ask forgiveness later. If a thing is that important accepting risk is part of the deal. Nothing is earned without paying a price. There is always opposition in one form or another. You can never be liked by everyone.
Yes, this is true. I just don't see Bob as asking anyone to fight for him, so much as he hopes people will find the courage to fight for themselves. And by doing a thing and taking the risk, you are fighting for yourself.
Sounds logical.
The man calling others sheep, was unwilling to put his own hide on the line. Now when he is safe, he cries for expanded freedom.
Instead of crying for what you don't have, just be the person living the way you want. There is more freedom in doing that. It is better than waiting around for change or the right time.
You seem to be taking this "sheep" comment personally. I wonder why if you're not controlled by "society" in your clothing choices. The sheep description isn't so much a name calling as it is a metaphor for the influence of the fear based herding of the masses to obey and be controlled.
Yes we should just assert our will and live the way we want. But there is a risk and there is nothing wrong with lamenting that risk and trying to eliminate it. It's easier when freedoms are offered within society, than to have to be labelled as degenerate or anti-social.
Bob I recall your recent posting about you just finding the courage to explore naturism and your recent fortitude to post nude images of yourself. In that post you acknowledge the difficulty in an age where corporations spy on employees and the great risk some take to be naturist. And yet here you are throwing stones calling others you do not know sheep.
I know my present boss looked at my Facebook and my web pages. He knows I am a naturist and artist working with nudes as subject. I know this because he asked me. Unlike some, I have been navigating my entire adult life in naturist waters.
The amount of time one has been "awakened" does not negate the fact that he is.
Well, David, you underestimate. Back in the 1980s I had a job with a government security clearance and included the AANR (ASA) nudist club on my security reports. We also took naked photos to the photo processing at our local store long before digital. I always worried that some clerk would call police or something, but we did it anyway. I've been out hiking naked since the 1960s. The Internet is a new ballgame. I described my concern and decision to participate in some forums, but I've been sharing naked photos on-line somewhere since on-line was invented.
Of course we are all concerned. There is a RISK being naked. Facebook suspends accounts. Flickr deleted my account. I finally started my own web page to post my naked photos and links to my own naked photos. There is a RISK, but the risk gets less and less with every person who dares to bear the risk on-line and especially in person.
There is a time for everything, think about it! Careful of "we have a right",.
Too often the time never comes unless someone makes it.
It is obvious that our fundamental human right to our own body will never be achieved while so many of us are willing sheep who enforce the master's demands to hide our bodies from view.
“When in Rome…..” is a pragmatic rule for behaving in another culture to avoid unnecessary conflict.Attributed St Ambrose, bishop of Milan, and also apparently quoted by his protege, St Augustine of Hippo. However, it is not a general commandment to conform and certainly not on matters of conscience. St Ambrose was content to suppress those of Arian faith in Milan who rejected the Nicene crede.Otherwise, no society would ever change – although I would campaign for religious freedom, not suppresion….
Naturism is about a basic human freedom, to live a natural, simple life without harming anyone. There is no logic in fear of the uncovered human body and it is a laudable aim to campaign for its acceptance. And I am talking about freedom, not compulsion, which is ridiculous when we live in climate for which we are not naturally adapted.
While there is no logic in enforcing the wearing of clothes, it is deeply ingrained in the culture of modern society. Aggressively asserting a right to be naked would alienate many and be counter-productive, while keeping it behind walls and hedges and otherwise out of sight would achieve nothing. There is middle ground that Newt itself tries to travel, being open about nudity, not hiding, but also being sensitive to those who find it challenging.
But it is good to challenge people’s preconceptions, to make them a little uncomfortable so that they think, not so uncomfortable that they retreat into their shells and don’t engage.
"When in Rome do as the Romans," applies to many situations. It is all about watching the conduct of others so you know how to behave in unfamiliar circumstances. Those circumstance could be you as a formal dinner guest in someone else home. Another adage is monkey see monkey do, it more or less the same idea. Some call it mirroring.
Well I am politically active. My wife is a representative for the party of our choice for our area. We know what is going on.
I can't help you with your constant worry.
Funny we live in the same state. I have lots of opportunities to go naked. What on earth is stopping you?
Natural well there is very little about humans that is natural.
"When in Rome" is a good adage for being a polite guest in a foreign country. I believe in progress and social change and having a say in my own country.
I also haven't been arrested for simply being human, but that is because I live in constant worry of the possibility, and so often have to deny my natural state.
I have never been confronted or arrested for being a human being.
I may confront myself for being foolish. My wife may make a joke about me doing something foolish.
I also believe in the adage when in Rome do as the Romans.
Yes, but wouldn't it be nice not to have to worry about being confronted or arrested for simply being a human being?
I do not need others to tell me my body is acceptable. Frankly people think many things, most of which I am not privy too. Thank God for that saving grace. Usually they are focused on them selves, their worries, and the latest text message. What you actually look like may never cross their minds.
Your worries about body acceptance is far more about you. Stop asking others to say you are okay. They won't. You cannot change other people. You can only change yourself. Stop crying about how you are being oppressed. Your oppression starts with you. Accept the price that comes with living the naked lifestyle. There is always a price attached to every lifestyle.
Why ask permission? I don't. I simply live my life the way I choose.
It seems to me the fight for equal rights is on going. It also seems, there is a segment of the US who take notice when those given the right to vote, do not show up to vote. That same group is willing to take those rights away.
The point of a right is to live it. You want to be free to walk naked down town. Once you get that right you should live it a hundred percent. There will be those enraged by the change. They will seek every opportunity to point out your lack of you not living the way you claim.
First it's not so much "demanding" to be naked so much as being allowed and accepted. Second, if the fight is for the right to be nude where and when we want, then it means where and when we want.
Why would those around me expect me to be nude 24/7 regardless of environmental conditions? Anymore than those who fought for and won any other right? And are you saying that a fight for body acceptance, normalcy of the human body and the right to be nude is an unjust fight?
No not ridiculous. When you equate your demand to being naked where ever and when ever you want to those of color demanding equal rights. Their fight is just and has gone on a long time. You can never make a valid claim.
There is always a price for every demand. Are you willing to live your life naked everyday, no exceptions. Meaning you must be naked even when temps drop below zero.
Montana has very long winters with temps that drop below -30 with raging winds of 60 miles. When we demand a right, we are then expected to live that right. Once you are given that right to be naked anywhere anytime, those around you will expect you to live it no exceptions.
I prefer choosing when to go clothes free.
Years ago I was a member of a health club. I loved the steam bath. One day a man came in wearing shorts, shirt and towels around waist and shoulders. I was naked minding my own concerns. He began preaching about how Jesus saved him from his ways of over drinking and so on. I guess he felt I needed saving. Angry that this man was imposing (forcing) himself on my peace, I state simple, Jesus died 2000 years ago. You did the hard work of saving your self. Jesus did not do one blessed thing. Take the credit for your own hard work. He stormed out.
He was being non-violent while exerting pressure. I then exerted mine. He stormed out. I remained naked enjoying the quiet and the steam.
Your opening comment is ridiculous. Are you saying a person of color can't now sit at the back of a bus if they choose? That gays must always announce their sexuality and marry their partners?
I am sorry Joe none of us as nudist, naturist or people wanting to live a naked life style can equate our desire with that of a group deprived basic rights held by the majority.
My desire to be naked is a choice. I live my life style with recognition that others get to live theirs. I do not hide my life style.
Sadly in the States we are dealing with a backlash from those fearing change. But change is a constant. Social change happens as technology and natural events collided.
David: I respect your opinion as to rights vs lifestyle. Change is indeed constant as you say; however, I'm certain that technology (movies, tv, computers, smartphones, etc) has made us more accustomed to images of nudity, especially nude selfies where large numbers of the population have nude photos of themselves.
I believe society is far less afraid of nudity or being nude but still afraid of being judged for being nude or labelled pervert, exhibitionist, etc. This is why I think those who are not afraid to be nude where others may disagree give more courage to others and also add normalcy to the issue. In essence, they are bringing non-violent pressure against anti-nudity laws.
Force does not require violence. Being rude is a form of force. Talking over others so they can not be heard is a form of force. Children often attempt to force their will wanting what they want with no concern for others. When any of us seek to push our will on others, believing you are helping them, all you gain is resentment and make enemies. Asking and pushing are two they different things.
None of us get to have the ideal world we want. Each of us must work with the those around us as things are.
I hear a lot of crying about wanting acceptance. Well all of those around us want acceptance too. They want their ideal world too.
Personally I have learned acceptance starts with me.Accepting myself for who I am. Accepting others for who they are.
Remember the story about the man dressed in a coat and the challenge or bet made between the cold wind and the warm sun. It is a good life lesson about force and kindness.
David: You bring up an interesting point: Force is pressure exerted on something. Gravity, heat, steam, electricity are natural forces. Coercion, intimidation, harassment can be non-violent yet are still pressure exerted to bend the will of others. Non-violent protest is socio-political pressure intended to change policy or behavior.
Most of us would say non-violent protest against racism is good, yet it was certainly illegal in the past, in the U.S. and other countries. It is certainly an act of confrontation. So is being nude (in front of others who don't agree) a protest against rights that are denied, yet should be respected, or should we as nudists simply acquiesce to the textile majority?
Would Civil Rights have won freedoms by acquiescence? I think not. If there is no pressure, there is no change from the status quo. Indeed, opposing force (textile regulations) without counterbalance (equal political pressure) may shift policy against nudism as we often see. Action causes reaction, but culture can be changed through pressure. You can try to determine the best type and amount for any situation, but a good plan today is usually better than the perfect plan tomorrow.
Exposure to the unfamiliar brings shock, followed by familiarity then acceptance and understanding. While there will always be exceptions, as society gets more exposure (no pun intended) to the nude human body, it will grow more tolerant of it.
Your idea is not wrong, but:
First, stop using terms like "force" if you are talking about this, because "force" sounds like "violence" or "dictator". Better use something like "helping to get used to" or something like this, because "help" sounds like "being nice". (But I am not a native speaker, you shall ask someone else whether I am right).
And second, in most countries of the world, public nudity can be punished. So, if you want to execute your idea, you can try it with different people in a small town where police is far away and nobody knows you; and demonstrate clothes against the clothing laws.
You seem to forget before playboy, there were night club fan dancers and strip tease dancers of the early 1900's on. The film industry had nudity from its earliest days to the 1930's.
A good example is "Metropolis." Then things tightened up because people thought God was punishing them by bring the Great Depression. But the other side was subversive. Things began to loosen up by the 1960's.
Joe makes a good point. The pendulum is swing for a while to the right then back to the left. I see more nudity in film and TV. It is both female and male. Much of it is subversive.
If you really want to keep censorship away, fight for Net Neutrality. Then all voice will be heard, not just those with the most money. Join mass nude bicycle rallies. show the other side there are more than just one or two of us.
The great thing is the far religious right both Christian and Islamic do enough stupid things that hurt themselves. I find it interesting that both of these movements, meaning far right Christians and far right Islam, came about at almost the same time.
By the way I don't censor myself. Like all artists, I play the game, while smiling with feigned respect. After all the arts have fought censorship form the begging of time.
Cheers
David
Starting in the 1930s the US film industry had a CENSORSHIP/DECENCY BOARD composed mostly of Catholic Cardinals. Playboy and then Hustler magazines began publishing naked women photos in the 1950s. Many lawsuits about "free speech" followed in the 50s and 60s. We still have many hurdles to pass to allow human bodies to be seen generally but the battle did not begin in the 1980s. PUSHING our freedom has to happen or the forces for censorship of humans will prevail.
Force is never a good plan of action. Those being force tend to resist more, not less. The sudden rise of the social right is in direct response to beloved traditions being changed. There is a reason they call themselves conservatives. They don't want change.
There was a time in the U.S. When nude statues were okay. Nudism was popular. But our society decided to go a different way in the 1980's with the rise of the Christian Right.
Cheers
David
There was a time when being gay wasn't acceptable, nudity in movies was forbidden, etc. All are accepted now. There is always a reaction to change, but change happens just the same. Malcolm Gladwell's book "Tipping Point" refers to ideas that gain critical mass. The nude human body is slowly becoming acceptable, from photography (magazines like Playboy) to moving pictures (movies & tv) to internet and cell-phone selfies.
I believe in a generation that attitudes will tolerate nudity much more openly unless Islamic immigration creates barriers to nudity.
The point here is that there is no force. The word 'force' is used only to legitimse supposed intolerance. Appoaching people closely, deliberately and not allowing them to walk away or look away to ensure that they see you naked is aggressive and implies force, and no-one in their right mind would do it. Simply being yourself, minding your own business, albeit in the presence of other people does not involve any force. They may look at you, or they may not. They may like the look of you ( however you are dressed) or they may not.
However, it is always sensible to avoid unnecessary conflict and that usually involves a judgement of when others may take particular offence to our behaviour, or mode of dress. The judgement relates to norms, expectations, which can be adjusted by gentle habituation. So the more people see nudity in public in a non-confrontational, non-threatening manner, the more they will accept it.
Interaction with textiles is always awkward and always spoils the fun of being nude. Maybe some day it will happen. Until then best is to document all big areas where nudism is totally ok. Is there a list that's more than just beaches and the nudist classics in France ? Like trails and forests and hills and huge private lands where you can be fully natural all the time ?